quick 4AGE question for brentp (and others running the 4AGE)

EDIS and Megajolt installation related topics. Be sure to review the <a href="http://www.autosportlabs.net/MJLJ_V4_vehicle_installation_guide">Vehicle installation guide</a>

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dr.occa
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Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: TX

quick 4AGE question for brentp (and others running the 4AGE)

Post by dr.occa »

brentp, since we share the same engine model (4AGE) what is the correct spark plug wiring on the coil pack? my coil pack is 1>4 on the left side and 3>2 on the right side (looking at it from a bird's eye view). should i plug in the wires according to the numbers on the coil pack or switch 4 with 3 (4AGE firing order 1>3>4>2)? also, how close does the vr sensor need to be to the trigger wheel for the right signal? thanks in advance.

dr.occa
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: TX

Post by dr.occa »

Never mind everyone. I found the answer I needed from Paratime's response to Barry_D's question which was, for all intents and purposes, exactly the same as mine above. here's the referenced thread.

dr.occa
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: TX

a bit confused now...

Post by dr.occa »

ok, i've seen on the megasquirt manual (ref. www.megamanual.com) reference to wiring a 1-3-4-2 running 4 cyl engine by banking spark plug wires 1&3 on coil A in their firing order and 4&2 on coil B in their firing order.

i've also noted differences in ignition wiring from our community's pages and that of the megamanual's page(s). which would be the correct wiring? i've included pics from their respective sites below.

from www.autosportlabs.org:
Image

from matt dearden's edis installation page(s):
Image



from www.megamanual.com manual:
Image

brentp, how do you have your spark plugs fitted to the coil pack and the coil wires connected to the edis module?

sorry to harp on this.

p.s. - carbs are rebuilt and ready to mount :D
Last edited by dr.occa on Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

brentp
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Post by brentp »

Well, our diagram is correct, of course! :)

But seriously- when I hooked up EDIS on the 4AG the first time (waay back.. before any of the autosportlabs documentation existed) I did have it backwards- and the engine refused to run. I swapped the pairs and it was fine. So the lame answer, at least with 4 cylinders, is that if it doesn't work switch coils A and B. It also depends on how you orient the coil pack relative to your engine's head and spark plugs- you might want to run the opposite coil packs if that physical configuration makes sense.

So we may very well have the 4 cylinder coil pack diagram wrong. Since you're wiring it up for the first time, could you test it and report back?

Thanks,
Brent Picasso
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dr.occa
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: TX

Post by dr.occa »

well, got the miks back in place:
Image

-hooked up the spark plug wires first placing no.3 on coil A under no.1 and no.4 on coil B above no.2. car wouldn't start at all. carbs just barked back.
-swapped the coil wires and the car wouldn't start either. it would pop and the car would instantly stop trying to turn over.
Image

after putting the coil wires back to normal and putting no.1&no.4 on coil A and no.3&no.2 on coil B, the car would start (after mashing the gas pedal constantly) and run as if it were only on 2 cylinders all the while getting hot fast as i constantly applied the gas pedal.

i've tried one other EDIS module and it's still the same old story (this is in limp home mode). i've checked continuity on everything. the only other thing would be creating a new vr sensor bracket where i can adjust it around the trigger wheel to see if it is infact the positioning of the VR sensor:
Image

all i know is i'm wanting to more and more go back to my 2D MSD setup the longer i'm without my car... :cry:

brentp
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Post by brentp »

Sorry you're still having problems. With the correct EDIS connections, coil packs and spark plug orientation it should run smoothly, even in limp home mode. Millions of Ford escorts can't be wrong! :) In fact, at 10 degrees it runs well enough that some have been faked out and realized only later that the advance wasn't being controlled by the MJLJ- and then once under control the engine just woke up!

I have my engine torn apart a bit diagnosing my own engine problems- I'll double check my own coil pack connections and we can compare notes.

Hang in there, it will be worth the effort! I'll follow up tomorrow afternoon my time.
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MartinM
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Post by MartinM »

Seems like it must be either:

- a big timing error - can you get a timing light on the pulley whilst mashing the pedal to see where you are ballpark? Sure you followed the sensor/missing tooth/TDC instructions perfectly?

- intermittent sparks - pull the plugs out and put them on top of the rocker/cam cover, still wired up. Regular spark on all four when turning over?

- wrong leads on wrong plugs - still :(

Got access to an old-fashioned Gunson's Colortune? Might help diagnose what's going on with the actual sparks?

dr.occa
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: TX

Post by dr.occa »

appreciate all the help and insight guys.

i've kept the MSD equipment inplace. i've rebuilt the carbs, checked for continuity, experimented with crossing wires both on the harness and at the spark plug wires. i've installed a new fuel pump. i've checked for compression but you never know sooooo, i'm going to connect up the blaster coil 2 again and connect the wires up to the dizzy and see if it runs like normal again. if it does, than we know it's something in the edis setup. if not, then, even with good compression, you never know about an engine's health!

i'll report back.

ps sorry to hear you're having engine problems brentp

this is the car in question. it should probably go in the powered by MJLJ gallery section but it's not running on MJ yet. :cry:

Image

brentp
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Post by brentp »

Yes, I'm really thinking it's either timing out of whack or wrong firing order, somehow. There should really be a deterministic, mechanical, check-list methodology to make this work and eliminate your issues.

But it's good you have the old distributor setup still, you should be able to quickly switch back and forth and do A-B comparisons. It would be good to put a timing mark on your crank pulley (even use a sharpie on one of the teeth) and observe your timing with the distributor setup. Process of elimination and you will get it working.

... I just had a crazy idea that I will reserve for later. :)
Brent Picasso
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dr.occa
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: TX

Post by dr.occa »

alright! good and bad news.

bad news first: engine still won't run right.

good news: it's not the edis! had to replace the distributor. fortunately, i have a spare 86 just laying around the property :wink: . after re-connecting some wires on the 6al, i got the car to turn over. to my surprise, the car ran no different except that it took even more coaxing to get it to start than when the edis was providing the spark.

more good new: i've got a spare engine sitting around :wink: just for these situations so i'll be working on getting it into the engine bay and everything hooked back up. while i'm at it, i'll be installing a set of cams before it goes in.

even though compression was showing to be good, the car still wasn't right. getting the car to start with the old ignition setup showed that it has to be with the engine. the engine head is suspect due to a recent "tick" the car picked up immediately after a gymkhana/drift practice session. the car began to over-heat when the electric fan ground wire decided to vacate its assigned seat. found out AFTER the temp gauge read 240! tsk...tsk...tsk...

i'll let ya'll know what happens next. thanks for sticking around to help out everyone.

MartinM
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Post by MartinM »

I guess you've nearly had enough of this engine by now 8) ....

....but it seems a big decision to me to change the engine even on the basis of it not running properly on the distributor either.
....especially if the compression test is OK (was it on all cylinders?)

How did it run the last time you put it in the garage?

Are you really really really really sure it's not a fuelling problem?

What fault do you think the engine has? You're implying it must be a mechanical problem - but if it used to run OK and the compression test is OK then I can't think of much else mechanically wrong inside the engine that could make it do what you're observing

Maybe an engine forum might be able to help you out - I'm more than happy changing engines in cars, so it doesn't frighten me, but I'd hate to do all the work and find it was something simple external to the whirly-round and up-and-down bits inside the engine :oops:

dr.occa
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: TX

Post by dr.occa »

appreciate the reminder to look before leaping MartinM.

actually, i forgot to give a little history prior to the edis install.

as mentioned before, the car picked up a pretty bad tick after a recent performance session where it heated up pretty badly. anyway, 4 days later (a thursday) the car broke down on me while on the freeway (in the far left lane even) heading to a job interview (impeccable timing for such things). pulled it to a friend's that was barely a mile away and discovered after troubleshooting it that it wasn't getting any spark. so, being that i had been sitting on the edis system, it became the prime candidate for replacing the current ignition setup.

-fuel pump has been replaced
-getting good fuel pressure
-carbs have been rebuilt
-even replaced distributor (car wouldn't even start with the original one yesterday)

i've surmised that the mjlj is in good working order since i could get the car to consistently fire up and stay running where as it took far more coaxing and coercing to get it to fire up and run with the engine displaying the same exact symptoms as when it was running on edis.

when the edis was firing, i was able to check for spark on all 4 wires so that's another check for mj.

sorry for being long winded about this folks.

brentp
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Post by brentp »

Thanks for the update.

So you suffered some kind of mechanical problem at your last drifting session, and you suspect overheat as well, caused by the disconnected fan.

Two problems from the above:

1. oil starvation problem (knocking / ticking)
2. overheat damage (head gasket damage)

Which of these could cause a hard start problem? A blown head gasket should show on a compression check. Have you done a proper leakdown test, recently?

On the EDIS install, my EDIS->coil pack wiring does match the wiring diagram in the wiki.

Here are my coilpack cylinder connections:

Code: Select all

Top down view of coil pack
    4    2
    1    3
 &#40;connector&#41;
It starts and runs fine, but also with a 'ticking' sound, not ignition related. :)

Keep us posted!
Brent Picasso
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dr.occa
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:52 pm
Location: TX

Post by dr.occa »

haven't done a leak down test brentp. i could go ahead and do so.

ok, i've been hooking up the sp wires as per diagram below:

i don't believe it'll make a difference but i'll swap the wires to reflect your setup and give it a shot before pulling the plant. thanks for the info.
Attachments
coilpack-connection.jpg
coilpack-connection.jpg (6.65 KiB) Viewed 24002 times

brentp
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Post by brentp »

Correct, since 1&4 fire simultaneously (and 2&3) it doesn't matter which way it's hooked up. In my case it worked well with the plug wire lengths I was working with.


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